Cancellera Descends

Stage 7, 2009 Tour de France

Trying Some Fillet Brazing

I'm home for a bit in this summer of traveling, and decided I wouldn't start right in to building a frame until August. It's a bit strange since I've had one going for the last three years now. But I can ride (and I love my last one) and I'll have my mind on other projects for a while. So far all of my frames have been lugged. I thought about it and decided I'd better do some practice work with fillet brazing with the limited time I have available. I've dealt with brass, but I've never built a frame with brass fillet joints. If I'm ever going to build a tandem or a mountain bike I'd better get my skills up.

Yesterday I spent a couple of hours playing around with scrap tubing and the torch. I started with two pieces of steerer tube, really heavy stuff. I mitered it up and just let it fly. Then I tried two pieces of thin wall tubing and did the same thing. Finally, I did a third set with some head tube and a piece of .7 top tube.

It was fun and a challenge! Above are some photos of pieces before soaking.

My three joints above after a soak.

Close ups of my joints after soaking above.

I took my last piece and did some filing.

What do I think? I think this is going to take a whole new skill set.

-Your mitering has to be perfect.

-Tacking wasn't too hard.

-When you actually braze the joint you need a good way to hold the work and still be able to adjust it. If not you need to shut off your torch and reposition your work several times.

-It's difficult to see your braze through the flux.

-Filing, it might be the hard part. To make smooth clean curve takes care. You also can real easily take a gouge out of your tube by accident.

All in all, a good first experience with a new skill. I know I'll have to practice more before I take on a bottom bracket and some chain stays.

Susan's Frame Built Up

I'm home after a couple of weeks on the road, and I set directly in to building up Susan's frame. I left her lots of space for adjustment on the front end. The build is with a Veloce compact crank 10 speed double. I like the new levers and the whole package seems to function pretty well.

In designing this frame I pulled back the cockpit with a 72° head angle, extended the rake a bit to keep trail under control. This allowed a relatively short front center. I found some 170mm cranks and a women's specific saddle. She likes it and hopes to get out and ride more and more.

Zero #9 Built Up

I've gotten my silver Zero frame built up. I've gotten faster at moving parts from one frame to the next as I build them. This is my Centaur group with a Chorus crankset and compact gearing. I have a Bontrager carbon seat post, Deda Newton bars and stem, Ultegra pedals, Mavic SSC tubular wheels, and a padded Flite saddle. I took it for a spin, but I'll ride it hard tonight at our group dropfest. Initial impressions: Great! I like the proportions of the build and how it fits me. I'm going to decide if the stem is long enough, it's a bit short. I may need a 110 or 120 instead of the 100 I have installed.

I like the silver/white scheme.

I won't have time to build up the lavender frame until I return from a trip west. If you don't hear from me it's because I'm working on my truck project.

Two Painted Part 3

Took them out in the sun for some photos.

Overall, I'm pleased. I see some things I might have done differently, or added, but you learn every time. The nice part of all this is I think these two frames are the best I've made to date. I'm anxious to see how the lavender frame with the 72° head tube and longer rake rides. I'm also wanting to see if I can feel the difference in the lower bottom bracket. I'm going to let these both dry well, then build them up.

Painting Part 2

Yesterday I got my primer on and a coat of white. This morning I was back it masking off areas I wanted to keep white. Both frames had white head tubes and a panel of white on the seat tube. Pretty simple, but lots of work getting it right.

I sprayed my frame a silver metallic.

Susan's frame is lavender.

I let them sit for a couple of hours, did some errands, than came back to have a look. I set them outside in the heat of the day to speed drying, then sorted out my decal situation. The masking material came off easily, but I had to do some touch up.

I cleaned everything up as much as I could, then set up to spray clear. I built up layers trying to get my decals buried. Often, I was right on the edge and had to shoot a little damage control. In the end, I put on a really heavy coat to get some gloss and called it quits.

The photo below is out of order, but it's from earlier before I put on the decals.

I don't think they will be too bad. Let's be straight, painting is hard! I have to accept the physical conditions of my paint area... dirty with lots of dust. All I could really do is clean it up as much as possible, then not disturb any more. I strained my paint and used a tack rag, but it was pretty futile. But in the end, I don't expect to paint like Joe Bell. I just want my paint to stick, be durable, and look pretty good. In the morning I'll go get my frames and let them hang for a bit before building them up. I'll be traveling a lot soon, so I'm not sure when it'll all happen.

Painting #7 & #8 Part 1

Schools out and I finally found time to get some paint on. The shop was a mess when I arrived and I had to spend some time blowing the dust out of it before starting. And I'm sure it won't help, but I've got to go with what I have.

I started out with an etching "wash" primer on everything. Not sure it's necessary, or used by many, but I have it and think it won't hurt. It's translucent green and goes on thin and easy. 

Both of these forks have stainless crowns. I masked them so the shoreline would be painted.

Next was an epoxy primer. It was gray and I missed a photo of it. I want to have panels of white on both of these frames, and didn't want the gray to affect the color coats, so I put down white everywhere. I took care to give the finished white areas more coverage and went easy on the parts which will be covered up by future colors.

Forks drying.

I'm painting two bottle cages to go with Susan's bike. I left everything to dry enough so I can mask without disturbing the paint. In the morning I'll go back and mask, then shoot my second colors. I'm planning on lavender for Susan's and a light metallic silver for mine. If all goes well I'll let that dry a bit, then put on decals and clearcoat.

Overview Of The Frames I've Built So Far

By now, I've built 8 frames. There is no doubt I am getting better at this, but lets be clear... this is hard. I have focused on building lugged road frames, and have built most of them in very similar ways. I feel frame building is a hard enough endeavor without changing too many variables with each try. The classic road bike is what I'd like to ride, so I've started there. I hope to do some fillet brazing on future bikes and branch out into more diverse styles. I will run down each of the frames I have made below. I talk about straightness in my frames below, and it's important to clarify what I mean. Ideally, the front and rear wheels are in perfect alignment. To achieve this most builders work on getting the head tube and seat tube in line with each other. Then, if you build it right the rear wheel will fall into place. So while brazing, builders strive to get the head tube and seat tube in line without any twist. A twist of 1mm. at points about 15" apart on the head tube is crooked.

#1 I made with the standard road tube set and lugs offered by Nova. This was the cheapest way to get started and I'm glad I did it this way. .9/.6/.9  tubes and round/oval/round chainstays, short campy drop-outs, a flat fork crown and raked blades. I built it from a drawing with as close as I could get to 73°/73° angles and a rake of about 45mm. I say "as close as, and about" because without jigs there was no way of knowing exactly what I was getting. I used a vice, straight edges and my drawing. Painted white with yellow decals this bike rode pretty nice. It's hanging in the corner of my garage and I hope to never let it go.

#2 I wanted to up the ante with my second frame and used better materials, but the same methods. Dedacciai butted Zero Uno oversize tubes, Sachs lugs, drop-outs, and bottom bracket, raked blades with a sachs crown. This frame looked beautiful, and I had it painted professionally a bright green metallic. I especially liked my seat stay caps on this one with the thin tapered seat stays I used. Too bad I didn't like how it rode! I'm not sure what it was, but somehow it must have had very low trail. I couldn't wait to get my next one going. I later put it on my table and realized it went downhill, then uphill, and back again. Mind you, this is only about 2mm, but you have to be pretty close or you'll know it riding. This frame is also hanging in the corner of my shop.

#3 My third frame was built with Columbus Life .7/.4/.7 tubes, and the mini slant 6 lugs Darrell McCulloch designed. I used slotted drop-outs and a straight fork built with a stainless Long Shen crown. The bottom bracket was a Pacenti and I used 14 mm double taper seat stays with a stainless cap. I cut little stars out of each lug and the bottom bracket. This was all the good stuff! I still didn't have a jig, but I had my small granite surface to measure with, and it helped. This frame came out very straight except for the bottom bracket which was off slightly. No twist, but the BB shell is slightly canted. I can't notice riding, so it is still my go to bike for riding. I rode it most of last summer without any paint on it and finally painted it blue with gray panels last fall. With Centaur and Mavic Reflex tubulars it weighed in at 18.2lbs. This frame kind of scared me at first because I realized I brazed very light tubes with short butts into it. After riding it a bunch I like the way it feels and am not worried about it. I also feel this frame was the closest I'd gotten to my drawing. I'm about to get ready to go out for a ride, and this is the frame I'll get on...

#4 I modeled #4 after #3. Same tubes, same lugs, same forks. The difference is I used stainless lugs and built in a huge amount of trail. I used my Bringheli jig for this one and it came out pretty nice. A little bit of twist, but really close. The bling of the stainless is nice, and I'd be riding it except I really prefer the trail of #3. It's a pretty bike that I put a ton of time into. I may make a new fork for it someday...

#5 was project "King." This one was for David and we built it together in about a week over xmas break. It's Zero Uno tubing and doesn't have fancy lugs. The fork crown is stainless and it has straight blades. It's sized for David and rides pretty well on the streets of Chicago. I painted it blue metallic with gray panels. It's pretty straight, but not perfect. Just enough off to kind make me mad! But overall pretty good.

#6 I built for myself using Zero Uno. I wanted to knock one out, but ended up spending serious time carving the Pacenti Artisan lugs down. It's a very traditional bike with raked blades and a straight top tube. I painted it dark green and like "King" it is very close to straight. Actually, maybe off more than "King." The fork is a bit short and I don't like that. I may throw another fork on it and I'm sure I'll like it more.

#7 This is a WSD specific design for Susan. I built it with Zero Uno and Pacenti Artisan lugs. A nicely raked fork of 50mm to compliment the 72.5° head tube. 74° seat tube, and really straight. I also dropped the bottom bracket to 80mm. Probably the straightest frame I've made so far.

#8 I just finished this one up and it's also very straight. Lightweight Zero tubing, Sachs lugs, Pacenti stainless crown and bottom bracket. This frame should be my main ride after it's painted. It's made for me with 73°/73°, 45mm rake, 80mm bottom bracket drop, 420mm chainstays.

I know I've left a lot of details out in the descriptions above, but if you look back in my blog, it's all there. More later...

Two Ready For Paint?

When are they ready for paint? When do you stop rubbing on them? I'm not sure, but after fussing with both of these frames for quite a while I did my best to clean them with paint thinner and called it quits. Back on the table they look pretty straight, the straightest I've made, #7 & #8. Th first photos are of my Zero frame for me. The last ones are the smaller Zero Uno frame I'm making for Susan.

Sachs lugs with built in STI stops.

Sachs seat lug takes a traditional clamping bolt.

Pinned seat stays.

Pacenti bottom bracket on both frames.

The smaller frame with Pacenti Artisan lugs. Note brazed on STI stops.

Pacenti seat lug features a threaded seat lug binder.

Both forks in the background.

Polishing stainless crowns takes time. I don't really get them as polished as many, but I get them close.

Next I'll have to mask the crowns and pick paint.

Two Getting Done & Polished

My two recent frames are getting cleaned up and ready for paint. I still need to mill one head tube, freshen the bottom bracket threads and in general, clean them up.

The two forks are at the same point and I'll polish them up together. Today I drilled the holes and cut the crown race.

Although similar in nature, the two frames are different: Susan's is Zero Uno, mine is Zero, Susan's has Pacenti Artisan lugs, mine are Sachs, both have Pacenti bottom brackets.

Major breakthrough for me... In the past I've had trouble cutting my crown races. It seems they would be off center, and that really is a bummer when you've put a lot of work into a fork. My VAR tool seemed to have a bit of slop on the steerer, and I wondered if that was causing the problem. So I played with shims and settled on a plastic piece off a 2 liter soda bottle. It fit perfectly and made the tool snug on the steerer. I just cut both fork races and the problem appears to be solved.

Tommorrow I'll go over both frames carefully and do a recheck on the table. Hopefully if I get the crowns polished I can get painting in a few days. So far the plan is for Susan's to be lilac, maybe with white panels? and mine to be light silver metallic with some color as either a panel or accent. I'd better check my decal supply and the colors I have.

Thanks for following me! Have a great holiday if you're in America. I only have 4 more days with students before summer vacation starts. I'll be off until August 10!

Some Thoughts On Geometry

I received a question about my frame geometry:

“I wonder if you would be willing, when you have time, to write a post for your blog about your experiences with different frame geometries, why you are settling on the dimensions you are, etc. I am especially curious, (and if I have this wrong, please excuse me), why you went to longer chainstay lengths for a while, but seem to be going back to somewhat shorter chainstays. Did the long ones feel too flexible, or too slow in steering?”

I’ve been meaning to post some information on my thoughts concerning geometry, but haven’t simply because of the work involved in gathering all the information. I’ve learned a lot, but I want to make it clear, I am not an expert. While I have decades of riding experience, I only have a few years of building experience. I’m sure there are many variables I have not thought of, or I do not understand. With that in mind, here is what I think at this time.

I start the design process with an understanding of where I’d like to put the saddle in relation to the bottom bracket. Since I have my own position worked out fairly well, I know the height and setback I need. Setback is the distance the seat lug is behind the bottom bracket, and changes on a continuous scale as the length changes. If the seat lug is higher, the setback is greater. I have a paper someone made which will tell me what the corresponding seat tube angle will be for a given setback, but really, the angle of the seat tube doesn’t matter. The goal is get your saddle centered on the seat rails at the right height and position behind the bottom bracket for the given rider. As an example, the Zero frame I am just finishing has a setback of 162mm with a seat tube lug set at 555mm c-c. This gives me a handy 73° seat tube. I don’t think the angle of the seat tube matters, and most riders wouldn’t know the difference between a 75° or 72° seat tube if the saddle was in the same position relative to the bottom bracket. Another factor in the saddle position is the bottom bracket drop. Usually a 70mm drop would be considered normal, but there is a lot of hocus pocus around this topic. I built my first frames at 70mm, but changed on my last one to 80mm. Why? I did it to get my saddle lower, which will affect my front end placement and my handlebar drop. Supposedly a lower bottom bracket is more “stable,” but I’m not sure. I figure 10mm is not a huge amount and I will be lucky to know the difference. Lowering the bottom bracket did affect my building by making it more difficult to get my down tube and seat tube in the right places. I had to tweak the lug which took more time.

After I have the saddle set I need to determine where I’d like my bars to be. I like a seat to bar drop of about 70mm, and I know I like my bars to be 550mm from my saddle tip. These things are all relative since saddles are different, but it will get me close. Since I don’t have BikeCad Pro, I make a full size drawing. I don’t think I could do it without one. I place my bar position on my drawing and start working my way down from there. For my head angle I’ve used 73° as a given on my frames. For Susan’s frame I used 72° because of her size, bar reach, and desire to preserve a decent front center. As I determine the front end geometry I need to be thinking of all the variables and how they affect each other. I try to keep the front center, which is the distance between the bottom bracket and front axle above 590mm. On my builds so far this hasn’t been a problem. The 72° head angle on Susan’s frame brought her front axle out enough and still allowed a shorter top tube. My frames just work out ok because I’m really pretty normally built. Head angle will affect the fork rake if you are trying to get a desired trail. Susan’s 72° head angle meant I needed to increase the rake to keep the trail up in the mid 50’s. My 73° head angle let me use slightly less rake to achieve the same trail. I’ve experimented a lot with trial and am beginning to draw my own conclusions. The reason most production bikes use 73° with 45mm rake is it works. On my Zero build I used 47.5mm rake because I wanted to see what slightly less trail would be like. Earlier I used 40mm of rake on my stainless lugged frame to see what more trail would be like. There is a lot to this and I am not finished experimenting yet.

After I have my basic head tube placed I need to dial in my top tube. I’ve tried to build so I don’t need more than 10mm of spacers above my headset. This presents problems if you have the flexibility I have. If you’re young and super fit you can slam the stem down and have about 150mm of bar drop. The trick is to get the right bar drop and have it look good. On my green bike “Rock” I used a high top tube to give me even less bar drop. This left me with very little seat post showing, which isn’t very “pro” looking. Rides great, but doesn’t look good. I should have planned that one with a sloping top tube in hindsight. As it is, I get ready for a ride and grab my #3 frame every time. I may not be fast, but I want to look fast! This is another reason I like to use the larger bottom bracket drop, it gives me an extra centimeter up top.

By now my drawing looks pretty good and I can get an idea of the “big” picture. I can now make some decisions about chainstay length and how the front center affects it as well as wheelbase. The general rule of thumb is to balance the front center/chainstay dimention at 60/40. I think this is a good place to start, but who really knows? To keep more with the 60/40 I probably should shorten my chainstays. So far I’ve built with chainstays of about 420mm, long enough I could almost run fenders if I chose. On my last build I shortened them a bit and I think they are 410, but I don’t have the frame with me to measure right now and can’t be certain. I have heard repeatedly that longer stays give you less chain angle and a smoother running drive train. Pro bikes are going to shorter chainstays and I think it is related to stiffness of the bottom bracket to wheel. Makes sense, but I’m not a gear masher so I can’t really judge. I’ve also heard many times how a longer wheelbase adds to stability. I’m not sure about this either, but it makes sense. How much difference are we talking here, 10mm? Even with the longer chainstays I am building a pretty aggressive frame.

There are other measurements I see referred to which don’t make a lot of sense to me. Standover is a good example, what does standover tell you? Not much that matters. Head tube length is another one I don’t get. It’s a measurement that works in conjunction with bottom bracket placement.

Tubing choices are a huge area in custom building. With me, $$ is a factor I always weigh in. Thin lightweight tubes are harder to work with and you can’t cold set them. If you mess up it $$ down the drain. Thin tubes also overheat easily while brazing. I’ve used Columbus and Dedacchia, and they are both good. I’m not sure what to say about weight, stiffness, and all the rest of it, but I do know I like a lighter, softer, more forgiving frame. I think that’s why I go back to #3 for most of my rides, and it’s why I’m hoping this last one with Zero light weight tubes really works out. I think the .7/.4/.7 Columbus Spirit for Lugs is probably the best bicycle tubing ever made for what I perceive as my needs. It has long butts for safe brazing, and is light. That’s what the next one will be built with.

So there you have it, some thoughts about geometry. Not so hard, but lots of variables and decisions. Remember, what I say isn't the endall. But, next time you are out riding with a group, look at the others you are with. It’s amazing what you can notice about comfort and position. I see people who can’t seem to get their saddle in the right spot, and it all goes down hill from there. Others fighting with a stiff back and too much bar drop. Good luck with your own figuring. Even if you are not building I think it’s a good idea to make some drawings.

It's Been Busy Around Here

I wish I had more to show, but when I've worked I've been hurried and only had the chance for bits and pieces at a time. But, I got my brake bridge in and did some clean up work on the frame. It's basically finished and just needs some cosmetic attention. I started a new fork. I know I made two earlier when I made Susan's bike, but I wasn't happy with one of them and wanted to try again. Forks can be a challenge for me, just like the rest of the frame. What happened is my rake wasn't quite tuned, and I ended up with the steerer not being perfectly aligned with the fork legs. It was very minimal, and a lot of people would have never noticed, but it wasn't good enough. Besides, I had made the rake at 50mm and with a head angle of 73° I would have had super low trail. The fork I'm working on will have a rake of 47.5mm and give me just a bit more trail. I promise I'll get some photos up soon.

I wish I had some photos to show

Brazed Up!

Well, I've got this one brazed up and done except for the brake bridge and all the clean-up I'll have to do. Oh, and a fork. I changed my methods a little this time around and brazed the bottom bracket completely first. After tacking in the jig, I used my granite plate and larger MDF surface to check alignment as I went. After a lot of fussing about and working through the sequence I finished up with a straight front triangle.

I took a couple of photos as the bottom bracket cooled.

The above photo is out of order, but these are the drop-outs after a soak; all rusty and nasty looking!

I'm not convinced my Bringheli jig gets the chain stay lengths correct, so I just did the left side in the jig, then moved the frame to my vise and set the right side. It took more time, but I know it's right.

I went ahead and got the rear stays brazed in, the rest of my braze-ons, then gave the whole thing a good soak. Out of the tank it looks pretty rusty and rough. I still have to file some of the pins down and I've got silver all over the place I need to clean up. But, I'm very pleased with my shore lines and penetration, and of course the straightness.

I need to mill the head tube so the headset will fit.

You can see the stub of a pin in the drop-out cap.

Before I trim the top of the seat lug I'll cut the slot. Then I'll put in the rear brake bridge. Overall, I'm very happy with this one given my experience and brazing abilities. I'm hoping this one will be my main ride.

How does light metallic silver sound?

Work On The Seat Stay Caps

I went ahead and finished up my seat stay caps. As you can see I made sure I had plenty of material... and plenty of brass! 

A few minutes on the grinder got them manageable.

Careful file work is required for crisp edges. I'll trim the long points when I fit them up on the frame. I won't be sure of the exact shape I'll go with until that time.

Next post I hope to have my front triangle to show. I really have all the comonents for this build done now, I'm just waiting to get them all put together.

Gettin' It Done

I started work on my seat stay caps. They are always a nice challenge, and it's a place that I feel is very important to do well. Pretty easy, but really hard. Here I'm seeing how the cap meets up with the stay. I've used different pieces of tube for the cap; this one is pretty large.

I did some drilling and pinning on my lugs. Next I'll take it all apart, clean it up one last time, flux it up, and put it all back together.

I use finishing nails for my pins. If I square them off on the grinder they work pretty well.

A New One On The Way

I've had another frame in the planning, and have been changing ideas about it as I go. I've settled on the details now and it's full steam ahead.

Zero tubeset with Sachs lugs Pacenti bottom bracket, and socketed dropouts. I haven't decided which crown to use yet, but probably another Pacenti stainless flattop. I've got most of the braze-ons done, just the chainstay cable stop, bottom bracket cable guides, and front changer braze-on. I'll put those on later. Drop-outs are fit, chainstays are cut, tubes are mitered, lugs are shaped and bullied into position, vents are drilled... it's all ready to pin and flux.

Main features include an 80mm bb drop, 415mm chainstays, 73° front and close to 73° seat tube. I'm hoping it brazes up as straight as my last one.

Susan's Frame Ready For Paint

I could keep rubbing and polishing up a bare frame forever, but at a certain point you say heck with it, it's done.

As I've talked about before, I use an MDF surface plate with a BB post installed. I know it's close, but it's not a real known quantity, so I also call into use my granite plate. The only problem with it is it's size. I can't mount a BB post in it, but I can do some good checking. I'm happy to report all is good! My seat tube and head tube are in line with each other.

Next? I've got some Zero tubes being mitered and in the jig...

Gettin' It Done

Got my seatstays brazed in and then worked on the brake bridge and a bunch of smaller stuff.

After the soak my stay caps looked like everything would be ok. As it was they worked out really well and needed very little cleanup. I like the pins in the caps, I made sure they had silver all through them. I used 45% silver on the stay caps.

After this photo I went ahead and cut my seat lug slot.

I spent quite a bit of time on the brake bridge. If I was making lots of frames I would make a jig for this. As it is I mock it up with a wheel and a brake. These photos are right after brazing. I used 56% silver for the reinforcements, and 45% for the actual bridge. I built up a nice small fillet.

The brake fits right where I wanted it.

I also brazed on the STI bosses and cable stops, profiled the seat lug top, and started drilling the water bottle mount holes. Enough for one day.

Seatstay Caps

Seatstays, they make or break a frame. So far I've been very traditional in my treatment of the seatstays. I braze an inverted piece of frame tube onto the stay to create a cap. It's easy, but really hard. Below is a photo of my stays all set to braze up. Tommorrow I'll hopefully get a chance to check it all over and make it look good.

First I used the grinder to cut a bevel onto the seatstay. I like to make them long.

A piece of tubing is chosen to make the cap. This is a piece of headtube. I cut it in half making sure it was about 1/2" longer than my bevel. In the photo below you can see it laying in place on the seatstay. They must be mated perfectly, and to do this you need to file a curve in the stay surface to match the tube; the hard part.

When all is well, it's brazing time. I use a piece of brazing rod bent to act as a spring. It is put in the vise  with my seatstay and holds the tubing against the stay.

I brazed this with brass, that way I won't have to worry about it melting apart when I use silver to braze my seatstays onto the seat lug. I probably use more brass than I need, but it gets the job done.

After brazing and soaking, you grind and file the excess tube off the cap. It's important to always file with the tool flat against the stay. Slowly the finished product emerges. I left about 1/4" of cap extending beyond the stay; I can then use it to fine tune the oval shape, and give the tip a bit of a curve. The curved tip will give the stay more contact area with the seat lug.

I finished up by trimming the lower ends of my stays to match the sockets of the drop-outs. Above my frame sits with a wheel in it, my bench a total mess, waiting for a braze up... later!

Chainstays

Chainstays can be a challenge. It's important they are set correctly, and easy to get wrong. I have found my jig to be unreliable in getting them positioned right. Not sure why, but I trusted my jig last time and it messed me up. So this time I set my left stay and drop-out in the jig, got them right, brazed them, then set my right stay based on the position of my left one. I took the time to braze the right drop-out while fitted in the jig, it seemed to work better for these socket drop-outs. Back at my vise I put in a wheel and got my right stay the correct length. At this time I also set my drop-outs square. When I was sure everything was right I pinned my right stay, took the wheel out and brazed it. After a soak I put it on the table and made sure all was straight and centered. I'm really happy with how it came out. I know I spend a lot of time getting there, but it's all coming together for this one.

Now I need to figure out exactly what kind of seatstays I want.